This is Capsuled a site showcasing sub-genres and subcultures of queer and/or BIPOC descent. This series will be highlighting queer and/or BIPOC creatives in a casual interviews with a focus on understanding the impact of community on marginalized identities and learning more about really cool individuals.
Today, I sat down with the communist and avid switch enjoyer for an hour long Zoom conversation about blackness, time, and theory. Check out their interview below and watch the full-length interview under the videos section!
Share a bit about yourself
Let's do the basic introduction. For those who don't know me my name is Zoe Rivera. I also am colloquially slash affectionately known as though I am a sophomore at Pitzer College majoring in undecided currently, I say that jokingly I think I know what I want to do. I think it's gonna be sociology and gender and feminist studies slash maybe Africana Studies, something you know, that can be converted into anti capitalist propaganda. Hello. So we're hoping for something like that. And something that I I'm trying to think of things I like to do. I mean, like not not to make myself look boring. It's just that I'm like, I just do things like I was talking about how before this before the interview started about how like, I'm very much so a doer and I struggled to describe myself not in like, oh, woe is me way. But like, in a like, I think that what people have to say about me is more accurate testament sometimes that what I have to say about myself, because I feel like you know, those who really love me are able to give the appropriate Descriptor to like the emotion behind what I'm doing, but passions that I have.
I love writing, I love reading. I'm very avid, avid avid switch enjoyer I love my switch. It is in one of my little pictures for the for the interview. I love stickers. Very much so a sticker collector. I like to put them on everything. I think everything deserves to be dazzled at least once. I would say I love traveling, but I haven't really gotten the chance to travel that often. But I really do want to. And yeah, I'm I'm honestly just like an open book everything I'll try once. I'm uh, I guess you could call me a foodie. But like, I don't want to get lumped into like, foodie like just like, I feel like every time I see them or foodie, I'm like, it conjures a particular image that I don't agree with but like, you know, I love food. We're gonna go with that. I love food. And yeah, like I'm sure there'll be other things that I think of that like, you know, very accurately describe the as the interview goes on. But those are the basics.
What communities do you belong to?
Yeah, I you know, like you have the typical or not typical but like the very like okay, these are like very identitarian traits of mine communities that I belong to so you know, obviously I placed myself in like the black community I placed myself in the queer community I placed myself in like the non binary slash gender expansive community, but like more not more importantly, but rather to pay respect to the fact that I adhere to those labels. I also placed placed myself in like, like, I don't want to say like radical thinker or like critical theorists community, but like, just in like a like in the community that's like we need to we cannot live like this anymore like the liberation this community if you will, right. So I feel like what I've learned in the liberation of community in the critical theory community in the reading community has greatly influenced my perception of what it means to be black, gender, expansive, queer, etc. So I think, I think on those mutually informative, like I think they're, they usually include each other like, they're like, what it's not like a one can't be like, one can't be this without being that kind of situation, but rather that, like, I have a very particular definition of what it means to be these things based on what I've learned in that community.
How do you get into theory?
This is a very good question. Because sometimes I struggle to remember like the exact chronology of my like revolutionary development if you will. So I'm like, I think I always had class consciousness slash black political consciousness. I just don't think it was as refined as it is now. Like I think I always knew there was something off right I always was like, this is have like I could feel in my body that the way we are living is not good, right? And I think I started searching for answers wide I think one of the but when I first started searching for answers, but I was inexperienced a grasshopper or weapons, whippersnapper, all that jazz, I ended up in the nonprofit industrial complex, which is literally so Oh, I can go on for hours about how much I hate that shit. But like the I ended up in like working for an EU I don't want to like shake up let me actually be careful. But I ended up working for an organization that is very neoliberal in its approach to politics. And like we're not it's not just like this admin said, like that. They're very neoliberal in their approach to quote unquote, uplifting marginalized communities, whatever that means, under capitalism don't know. And I remember, like, I was always discomforted by the way that they would talk about so like, I was a social media manager, right. And I was always discomforted, by the way they were like, oh, like we care about like diversity, equity inclusion or whatever. But then like the their form of caring about diversity, equity inclusion, or like diversity, equity inclusion, or just generally diversity, equity inclusion to them, and most people means like, oh, like, I want you to like tokenize marginalized communities. I want you to, like make an infographic and like a sensationalistic infographic about why this like, literal gratuitous violence happened to like this black person getting shot in broad daylight, frankly, and it's like, why, like, the way they would like consume media was so like, like, they always saw it as a marketing opportunity, or, like a social capital gaming opportunity than ever, then I don't think they are and I don't think I know, they never ever, ever, ever cared about actually meaningfully impacting black people's political development or like black people's educational development, political education development, which I've come to realize is so so so increasingly important nowadays, right? So I was like utterly disaffected with that left, right. And then I spent like, a couple of couple of months being like, okay, like if I disagree with this, right, which is like basically the traditional lip neoliberal bottle of like, you know, anti racism like this, this organization that like, it's like, I care about diversity, equity, inclusion and anti racism, which are supposed to in our heads, right, be all the good things, but then hearing how they executed or like, literally firsthand experiencing how they executed, right, I left and I was like, just illusion because I was like, Okay, if I don't if I realized that this is messed up, right? Or if I'm calling this messed up, what is the other alternative? Right? Like, what where do I go from here? And then I remember I think, I know people were like, shut out a lot because like, there are definite there's definitely misinformation and I think it's just about finding the right side or the right community. But I definitely owe a lot of my political development to Twitter. Like in terms of like introducing me to a lot of people who are who like even when make like, you gotta be careful of course, but like, I'm like, I digest my information knowledgeably, right, I adjusted with, digested with intention. So it's like, I've ever seen a lot of threads about like, introductory books to read. Like if you're interested in like, I don't know, I thought the words to be you'd like so transparent. I was like, Oh, this is a nice word I kind of learned about it because they were like, oh, introductory texts to read, if you like, want to learn about the dialectics of revolution imperialism, right? And I was like, that sounds really cool. And I was like, that's, that sounds really interesting. So I picked up like, I read some of the introductory texts, and I was like, oh my god, I finally found it, the political banner I want to subscribe to this is what my belief system is. And then that's probably how I got here. So it's like, definitely through a lot of reading and also a lot of reflection because I think people really underestimate the power of like, you need to be personally conscious of like, of your your political development to be able to actually change it. You can't just like what's it called passively receive information and do nothing with it, then you're literally no better than any other incompetent office, right? Like these people are receiving work like that people who are orphans are receiving reports, reports of like, politicians received reports of like community deaths, and like, mass violence, all that type of every day, and then literally choose with deliberately even though they literally have the power to do so. Nothing about it, right. And it's like, that same thing applies to us as individuals, right? Where it's like, you can choose to be and I'm not like, it's not like I'm gonna say this deliberate, like silence is violence way, but I'm saying like, they're there, you need to develop a revolutionary activated discipline to be able to actually, like, effectively disseminate information about socialism slash communism, right? Like you need to be able to, like make, to need to know your know how, and I think that a lot like having the emotion of course, is like a very guiding force that like will land you in the right spot generally, but you need to be committed to revolutionary learning and unlearning to get to where you are. And I think that I'm very happy that I had people in my community who are I learned top people who had that commitment and is still there within me because I'm very like, I think people also forget that like, you know, it's very easy to slide into like because like you have like the parallels right so it's very easy to slide backwards into like, okay like because like it's like it was really we really talked about it right like right wingers like you know, you don't like like the fashion play the right winger people who are like, Oh, the system sucks, like, you know how like Marjorie Taylor Greene was like, defund the FBI with Trump and stuff like that, right? Like that. People like to say that like, Oh, these are like people who you know, we could convert to be communist and I'm like, Y'all are so not being free right now. Because they're literally these people are literally fascists who are momentarily disagree with the FBI because they're literal, because because their literal fascist president was like, you know, we're not like fascist using that very loosely literal, fascist president was not you know, like reelected right? And it's like I think that's that's an issue of like, not actually knowing your know how, because it's like, if you think if you think literal, you think literal white supremacist fascists that are quote unquote, low income can be radicalized. It's not true because like these, these people like cuz I'm thinking about like, what? Trump's like, Yo Mar a Lago thing getting raided, and then communists trying to come to the rescue on Twitter being like we could, this is a mode this is like a very important moment of radicalization. We can like radicalized all these people, as if they're like low income, fascist American working class people, the most of the people who flew out to like the January 6, like insurrection. We're literally rich white people, they're dope people who tend to be fascist because neoliberalism and fascism are intertwined. Our rich people, these are rich people, why are you ally with art rallying to the cause of rich people be so for real, right? So I say all that to say that it's like, it's, I consider it really important to do your reading, right to know your know how, and I know that it's really hard. Like, I guess it's really hard to like, digest it all. But there's like plenty of people out there, like on Twitter and other sites, I'm sure, like, especially Tumblr, obviously, who do really good breakdowns with the text, like you know, use your six hour video SSTR adventures, look up a six hour video essay on like, a comprehensive review of like, you know, let it's like stay in revolution, like, let's be stuff real, like, look, look, look for these things. And then you'll you'll reach you'll reach where you need to be like you will get there you will you have like or, you know, if you have that emotion like I want to be of use and like the genuine emotional I want to be using the revolution. You You will you won't you will find your place in it right like you will, you will get there you will be guided there. You just gotta make sure you put the effort in first. So yeah, read kids, please read if you have to, if you if you have access to do so. Please read. Let's do it.
What contemporary spaces have been integral in fostering communities immediate to you?
I think that would be Twitter, and then Instagram, for sure. But like, not like New Age, like social media, advertisement, Instagram, or like corporate advertisement, Instagram, but like Instagram, like, I think, right before, like, right during when the pandemic hit, because that's how I think that's how I made a lot of my friends. Because, you know, I did have my first year of college, and I was like, oh, like, I want to, you know, make up for the fact that I'm not going to be there physically in person. So like, I used Instagram, because we had, there was like this account called, like, the five C's, like classic 24, this year, where people were posting their bios and stuff, and I, you know, made an active effort to, like, you know, make a bio post haven't posted, and a comment on other people's things. And that's, you know, to make friends. And I see, I succeeded it every regardless, we so for real, but like, I really made some phenomenal connections out there that I still, like, managed to not not only, like, retain in person, but like grow like in person. And like, these people have been so instrumental to my political development. Like, I like I have, like, you know, had theory blip ups with them. I've had, like, you know, like, you know, they've had hot taste with me, like, you know, I hate the whole hot tech system, but like, you know, we've shared our insights with each other, right? Like we, we share each other, read it and give each other readings, right, you send each other informative, like, there's like, we give each other readings, right? But there's also that like, fun, like, Oh, this is what, like, every time they send me something that doesn't really have to do with theory or like, doesn't have to do with theory, and like, you know, the colloquial sense, right. I always think to myself, I'm like, oh, like, this is literally what community can be, once we are done with capitalism, once we have eradicated capitalism, right? I could just like, send my friends a tick tock of like, or like, it'd be it probably won't be tick tock after capitalism was abolished. But like, you know, I can send my friends a video of like, a baby goat in like a beautiful, lush plate of grass, and then be like, Wow, this is beautiful. And there doesn't have to be like some sort of critical extrapolation based off of it, right? Like we are reading to move past but also to abolish the concept of entirely right. So it's like, I constantly think to myself that I'm like, I'm so glad we're able to do radical imagining it that way. It's a very subtle, like, you know, technology of radically imagining radically, radically imagining, but I think it's a really important one to consider. Because it's like, every time I share like a moment of genuine joy with my friends, I'm like, This is what the world can be after this one. And it just like, instills a lot of hope within me. So I take my friendships very seriously. I think that's one thing that's really important to know about me as well is that like, I'm very, very, very much so an interconnected community person. So it's like, I feed off of other people's energy, not that like I'm an empath, like what you feel I feel type way, but like in a, I really, really, really care about the people around me. And I always am looking for a way to be a better friend a better comrade towards that. And it's like, whenever I experienced genuine joy with my friends, I always love to send them a text after or during or like talk about it with them to let you let them know how important they are to my life. Because I think truly for me, like without because I remember I said this before we like to start recording and all of that but like for me, honestly like the interpersonal relationships that I have cultivated, like I would not be the person I am today without all of these relationships like Kobe linked together and like creating me so I'm like, I just attribute a lot of my development and a lot of who I am to the people around me and I'm just I'm just so like, this is like that. I'm trying to be sentimental but you know, this is just like a really big shout out to everyone who has ever held held me loved me care for me taught me how to love taught me how to care, right? Because like because of them I'm like, Oh, love can be a radical politic. Right? So I'm like, that's a political neutralizing force. It is something that takes a great deal of effort, right? Like when people are like love is unconditional i That's not true. You write your love does have conditions and those conditions are boundaries and needs. And that's okay. Right like that you it's okay to not to have different needs wants and boundaries, right? Just communicate that communication is so, so important. And it's like, I'm so happy that I'm able to communicate that with the people that I really value my life like, I don't feel afraid when I'm like, Oh, you like, you know, oh, this, you've crossed this boundary and but I'm not like oh like you've crossed this boundary like punitive like we can't be friends anymore, right? I'm like oh like this bout like there's a boundary of mine that you you might have teased or poked out or like expanded past the comfort zone a little bit, and I really want to talk about it with you. And it's always a productive restorative conversation. I'm just I'm just so happy to have people in my life like that, that are able to communicate in the way that I want us all to be able to communicate because then we will be able to love so much more effectively than like because the what we get fed as love in by mainstream media, corporate, you know, the corporate capitalism, like the whole brand. Here we go insert all the buzzwords that y'all want me to say. Like, what we hear what we hear is love from them is like Hallmark completely apolitical, you know, heteronormative and colonial patriarchal and the worst possible way, like love has to be the thing that saves you, right? You can't love somebody else without loving yourself, right? We have all this toxic messaging around, like what it means to love. And single people in our society, both on a structural and interpersonal level are horribly punished for like, not being able to love or being unlovable. And it's like, we have that we, since we all internalize that. And the ways in which we love each other could temporarily are so fundamentally flawed because of that. So I'm just like, happy that I have friends teaching and helping me learn that like, oh, I
need like, you know, like, I need someone in my life to like, complete me. No, no, no, I am who who I am because they are. And that's, that's what's important. I am because they are and we are both complete people that enrich each other's lives, right? In a very complete fulfilling way. And I say all that to say, Love on your people, please love on your people. They are who made you? Like we always got you know, you're always saying give credit where credit's due give credit where credit is due.
Would you consider yourself a non conforming person? And if so, has that helped you discover community or communities?
Yes, I would consider myself to be a non conforming person. I think there's like so many very nice words or attitudes that like are synonyms of non conforming, that I like to like unconventional. I remember this one, black trans author that I really love. They describe themselves as a non binary shapeshifter. Like I think there's so many really cool ways to go about being bad before, or not even just go about it just like define it, that I'm like, why don't why don't more of y'all want to be queer. Like, let's be real. Let's be real. I don't know if y'all want to be clear, because I think this goes into the follow up question you asked is that how do I see a show up in my communities? I think people more people need to become attuned to the fact that like queerness is not just like a state of being it's also like a politic and a lifestyle right like and I don't mean that in like a hotel influencers lifestyle, like when I needed like a beat like when you quit or something you are out of like, when you when you query something that means that something is already being read by society as not convention as unconventional as abnormal. So that should be pushed away to the side something that should be stigmatized, right? So it's like, by virtue of it have or inhabiting a body that has a marginalized identity, you are a queer subject to the state. So let me like hate this word hated black men, this is for you. You are inherently a queer subject are not inherently super opposed to be a queer subject, because the state does not see you as fully capable of masculinity because basketball needs a white supremacist construct, right? So I'm thinking about how that shows up in our communities where it's like, we talk about queerness and gender non conforming as being a politic and a place of thinking, or a way of thinking like a methodology, if you will, because it's like, you, you when you when you are cleared by the state, you must maneuver the world as queer, right. And if you come into community of people who also reckon with that fact, then you're going to open up so many radical possibilities of what the world can be post the demolition of all this stuff, because it's like, if, like, we don't have to, we like these labels are literally so unnecessary. Also, like very essentialist, like that, like, every label that we use to categorize ourselves, whether it's in terms of race, whether it's in terms of like queerness, and I, you know, I'm for the self determination, or at least calling themselves with it what it is, but I'm also thinking about in terms of like how every single category is, or our need to categorize ourselves and like, strictly label ourselves comes from a need to otherwise ourselves from other groups of people, and also is inherently a white tech side, or even who it's like, oh, like, we need to classify ourselves as this that people don't get us confused or twisted with this or we need to classify ourselves as this separates ourselves with the bad people that our population which you see is a very othering rhetoric that a lot of like a symbolist assimilationist like white queer people regurgitate when they're like, oh, like we need to present this very clean. Oh, like we want to be like stayed alive. Like we want to be very through the state like it's very clean image that's like, oh, was close that literally is close to heteronormativity. It's basically hovered over tivity, hobo normativity. And in the process of doing that, they're like, Okay, in presenting this clean image, we must then disgrace and push aside our black trans people. And it's like, whoa. So I, when I talk about the fact that when I when I, when I say that I've gendered out before, bigger what I've talked about the fact that you know, queer, this is like a politic that I live by, I say that as like a macro analysis thing that I applied to every community I go in, because I'm like, I'm going into the bike, I'm going into my communities with the mindset that like, we are all hearing queer, not in like a Yas, like, you know, like gay, love to be away. But like a, we are awkward here, because that is the future. And that is the world after this one, where we don't, because queer needs to be undefined. Like I see it as like, when you're non conforming, literally in the word non conforming, you don't conform to it just because you don't conform to like traditional attitudes, we also just don't conform to be labeled period. So I the way I for community is that people agree with that tenant, if they don't, if they see it a different way that I'm like, okay, that's just that. That's not for me personally, because you're not serious about quitting. It's like I am. So yeah, that's my perspective on that.
In what ways do you think music can enrich an individual and/or collective experience within communities?
Oh, music them. Okay. See now confession talk. i Okay. It feels weird to be like, I'm not a music head because everyone listens to music. Everyone loves music, right? But it's like I think I realized that in comparison to a lot of my friends my friends are very hyper analytical about me, he'll be like, Oh, like this bar really, like signifies a deeper theme within the artists is mind frame and you gotta like to enter his mind palace to really understand the gravity of this bar. And I'm like, I don't really care. Like I the beat sounds good to me. So I'm gonna listen to it. That's really like, not the extent of my perspective. But it's like, that's my initial perspective going into it. Right. But I think that it's definitely a very useful galvanizing and like, political consciousness raising force, like I think that like, it's a good introductory, like it's like a good auditory introductory text to like, a lot of understandings about the way the world works, right? Especially if you're listening to like, you know, folks rap about like, okay, like books rap realistically about poverty, folks, rap realist rap realistically about like gang violence, folks rap rap realistically about what it means to be black and XYZ way, right? So or like Black would it be to be like black and masculine, right, what it means to be black and feminine to the dark, right? So I think that that is that is the category of music that I will put myself into where I'm like, oh, like, this can be a very, very viable and effective channel for political propaganda zation, and like spreading the word about the way certain things work. But I do think that because a lot of these black artists are under white, like record labels and corporations, that that message gets very drastically diluted, and then the white corporations are like, no, no, no, you must be stereotypical. But at a DA so then you have them be like, but I'm not gonna lie about stuff that it's like, oh, no, this is not your like, you're not grounded in this like, this is not like I know, like you're you are rapping about just like one particular facet of blackness, because that is what that racial formation theory that is my wife's that has been his little racial formation theory has posited as blackness, that is the extent of blackness that is all blackness could ever be, that's what blackness was circumscribed about, right? But it's like no, their blackness is multi for blackness itself determined blackness is more like self determined, like in a, y'all know what I'm talking about when I still stopped helping her but I don't mean like the self determined, but um, yeah, so I think that music is very, I think it's when you're like really into it. I think it's very effective. I like that part, like, or if you're like, you know, into, like the politics of music. I think it's very effective when you look at it that way. But then also, just in general, like when it comes to community building community. I think that's how I see a lot of people build community Autistics something about Instagram, and like, you know, how people will post like, the little songs on their story. And then sometimes people will swipe up, like, oh my god, I love that song too, or, Oh, I haven't heard that song before. That's really good. Like, I think that's another way to build community. And I also think people's favorite songs definitely say a lot about what goes on up in here and what they feel in here so I think it's like a window into the soul you can say in a very, like, cheesy American novelist way, right? Like, I think like I could tell for me personally, cuz I'm very hyper liberal analytical, as you all know, that I could tell a lot personally about how a person's doing or what they, what they like, what they find valuable in this world through their music tastes. So I think it's like a it's an introspective tool, but it's also definitely like a Oh, a community. It's a communalism introspective tool that I think like can be very powerful when used correctly, because music is an art form. Right? And I There's this quote, I think it's by Toni Cade Bambara that says that, like the role of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible. And I think that more musicians should fall under that camp, where it's like, oh, like, you know, you're not making music. Like if you're making music to make bucks, then you're not better than every other celebrity that has been created by neoliberalism ever right? But like if you're using music to like, touch minds, change hearts point people towards a common directive or rule like to be like, hey, like wake up. This is a reality. Then I think like okay, maybe you deserve the artist and like trailblazer and spear header and don't have that label. But like if you're just pointing people with some sort of LOVE TO BAM direction like, though, like I'm not, I'm not I'm not for it. So yeah, I think that's my that's my take on how music, how music, what music is to me and to what two people I see in my life. Yeah.
Any final messages?
I think oh no, you know, it's only appropriate that I returned to thanks. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to have been here. You know, I love to cook I love to do my own horn so to to that was very nice. I love talking theory. I love talking how it connects to you know, the everyday things we experience. I just love you know, being a tool for the revolution. So I'm glad I got to propagandize a little bit on here so some seeds hopefully in some people's minds so you know, y'all will make fun revolutionary warriors. So make sure you tap in because I just gonna go into my shadow section right like everything that I say I say because somebody else either told me to start looking into the thing that I was describing, or because you know, we had a collective conversation about that I came to an insight because of them so as always, I shout out all my community members everyone who had a role in building me everyone had a role contributing to my to be into who I am built literally just building the honestly everyone who cuz I consider myself interdependent person so it's like the AI is very much so the week so I'm thankful to everybody who has gotten me this far. Thank you for everybody who I feel like I'm like about it I'm accepting an award like I'm like thanking everybody who got me up here. Thank you for thank you for the to the like white man donor who flew me out like hahaha, like no never thank you to that person. But yeah, so just thank you to everyone who was listening also, I consider myself a community project so I've given thanks to everybody but myself, you know, I'll hold my own rose I know I did the thing I know I did the damn thing but still, thank you to everybody else. And also just like y'all I say I say this so seriously. If you have the resources to start looking into the things that I said please do, please start reading. political education is very important. And y'all y'all will see the light once you start reading the the right thing so I have to meet all of you just keep looking. Keep digging a little deeper. But yeah, that's my message.